It took you a while to finally get it so you are frustrated - that’s normal and I don’t mean to be disrespectful in any way - but you can’t just come here and talk in the name of most of the world
You are doing backups for many many years so I take you are aware of always incremental backup scheme. There is a nice post on Bareos site here. I wonder how it fits to your understanding of most of the backup world? What UrBackup does is not THAT much different, is it.
EDIT:
One more thing, related to this part:
It makes me less confident that you know always incremental scheme. Please spend 10 minutes on reading the Bareos link I provided, it describes (and illustrates) possible advantages very nicely - and then decide if it’s worth it for you or not.
I read that article and it’s informative. Note, and note well, that Bareos uses a specific type designation, “Always Incremental,” to describe what’s going on. It makes it very clear that “classic incremental” and “always incremental” for file backups are not one and the same thing.
There seems to be a misperception that I don’t understand what’s going on, nor why it’s advantageous, neither of which is true.
What I object to is that it is not, clearly, differentiated from “classic” incremental in UrBackup. It is clearly differentiated, both in documentation and syntax, in Bareos. That matters.
But with this I’m out, as that Bareos article makes clear, very clear, that the entire “always incremental” scheme is only appropriate when talking about file backups.
I originally entered this topic because someone asked about “how it would be different” were full system images being discussed. And you don’t ever do “always incremental” in that context. It’s still classic full followed by classic incremental, and if you were to delete the baseline full system image backup all incremental backups upon which it depends are no longer of any use.
This has always been an objection on using a specific and well-known terminology for a backup type that is not, in fact, that backup type. “Always incremental” actually involves mechanisms not characteristic of “classic incremental,” and that’s fine. But that “Always” makes it clear that something else is being done. Personally, I’d have called it something like “Roll-up Incremental,” but it really doesn’t matter what it’s called provided it’s clearly identified/differentiated from plain, vanilla incremental as it’s been understood for longer than I’ve been alive.
Thanks. Terms have meanings, and some have far more well-established meanings than others. It’s wise to use either a completely fresh one, or one with a distinct modifier, when you are not, in actuality, doing what the well-established term means.
Giving distinct actions distinct identifiers is not a trivial request. It promotes understanding and prevents unnecessary confusion.
I wish this were the case. But it can be just the opposite. Example: The “OK” sign I’ve used all my life. Thumb and index finger touching forming a circle, other fingers extended. Forever it meant “I’m all right.” “Everything is fine.” “I understand.” “I agree with you.” But now it means something about white supremacy (I think?), and we are all supposed to be aware of this, otherwise we’ll be harassed, probably beat up, and maybe even prosecuted for some hate crime. There are a bazillion terms whose meaning has evolved, or in the case of this “OK” sign, have been replaced by a totally unrelated meaning and all previous meanings are to be abandoned.
Technically, Urbackups concept of “incremental” is not far from the conventional concept. When doing incrementals, it does indeed backup and write files to the backup media that have changed since the last full/incremental. However, it additionally adds links to the previous incrementals and full. So that those are no longer required at restore time. And you don’t have the added complexity of having to keep all the associated previous backups. But if you want to handle a restore using the conventional method, you certainly can. You can restore the full, and then all the incrementals in sequence - the conventional way (assuming you saved them). And you will end up with a perfectly good restore. But you don’t have to do all that - you can just use Urbackups slight enhancement to the conventional incremental setup (adding the links) to save yourself some time and complexity. But it’s your choice either way.
You do realize that the example you lead with reinforces my point. It’s a classic example of a well-established symbol/term being co-opted, and the confusion arises when the co-opted usage begins to be in the cultural ascendancy. It’s very analogous to what I’m decrying about the use of naked “incremental” being used in a way that incremental had never traditionally been. It’s even worse when you’ve gotta handle “full plus incrementals” one way for system image backups and another for file backups (where the full can be jettisoned at will).
At this point I do have to withdraw, because I believe that everyone involved in this exchange clearly knows what the others are saying, but we are not and will never be in agreement regarding whether the re-use of existing terminiology for a novel (and it is still, relatively speaking, novel) backup concept is a good idea. I think the concept itself, expressed in an article previously cited as, “Always incremental,” is a phenomenal one for file backups and makes sense. It should be clearly differentiated from classic incremental, which UrBackup does not do well because it just calls it incremental, and incremental for file backups means something different than incremental for system image backups.
We are all in our own camps and, on the whole, are likely to stay there. It’s been an interesting exchange all around.
Yeah, this thread did go a bit out of line… @anon16079863
And yeah, the terminology is a bit sub-optimal. As an excuse I was young and stupid when I did that and copied it from backuppc.
If you have constructive hints on how this situation can be improved I’m all ears. E.g. I’m often thinking that it might be stable enough to do away with the “full” backups completely. So just have “File backup” and “Resumed file backup” everywhere.
